Love, Simon (Queer Coming Out)

This episode we talk about Love, Simon - and whether it's a Bad Movie or if Rowan is just reading too much into it. Let's chat gay high school romance, queer YA, and #ownvoices. This podcast needs your help to keep going. We are still losing money and need your support on Patreon. Go to patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast and join for as little as $5 per month and we will provide you with personalised movie recommendations, along side all the other perks that come with membership. Thank you for supporting us! This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen! New episodes every other Thursday. Find Us on the Internet Super Highway - Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod  - Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast - Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/  - Multitude: @MultitudeShows Production - Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John - Editor: Julia Schifini - Executive Producer: Multitude - Artwork: Jessica E. Boyd   ROWAN:  Just before we jump into today's episode, I want to let you know about a special offer that we have going on on Patreon. So if you sign up to our Patreon by the 28th of August and don't worry, if you're already signed up, this counts for you too. You will get a personalized recommendation of a queer movie or TV show that we think that you would love based on your preferences. Very exciting. And of course, you will also get all of the other perks that normally come along with Patreon membership access to our Discord where we do monthly watch-alongs of queer movies, as well as top 10 lists queer newsletter that Jazza puts out, a bunch of cool stuff. So you can visit patreon.com/QueerMoviePodcast to find out more. [theme] JAZZA:  Welcome to the Queer Movie Podcast celebrating the best and worst in LGBTQ+ cinema one glorious genre at a time.  ROWAN:  I'm Rowan Ellis. JAZZA:  And I am Jazza John. ROWAN:  Each episode, we discuss a movie from a different genre of cinema. JAZZA:  This episode's genre is  JAZZA AND ROWAN:  Queer Coming Out.  JAZZA:  Oh, Oh, lovely have we used up all of the possible teen categories that we could have done in we're struggling. ROWAN:  Yes. We've done queer high school, queer coming of age, queer  romance, so we really weren't struggling but you know what these movies are coming out so it still counts. So this week, we're going to be reviewing the first gay film ever made. Love Simon, the film from 2018 based on the book Simon vs the Homo Sapiens Agenda by Becky Albertalli. That was a little joke courtesy of Jazza because he likes to write these little intro bits and then I have to say them, and he knows I have a we'll get into it later. But I have a little bee in my bonnet about the way this film was marketed. But spoilers for later on in this episode. JAZZA:  We have plenty of time to talk about it. But Rowan does have a 45-minute video titled, The Problem with Love Simon, so this shouldn't be really good. ROWAN:  I kind of spoilt it myself by anything I've ever said about this film on the internet. Which is why I was like I this is this episode has been a long time coming. I feel like this has been something that's been requested quite a lot. So we thought why not give the people what they want? JAZZA:  100% we're going to be doing our best to avoid retreading that video. I can't wait to see what Rowan really thinks about this movie. But before we get into that, Rowan, what is the gayest thing you've done since the last episode? ROWAN:  So I probably shouldn't say this because I've been, I've been- JAZZA:  A lesbian?  ROWAN:  But I'm a lesbian. No, I– I am writing a little thing that has some characters in it. And I just decided that they're all going to be gay, or queer in some way. I say gay but I mean, just queer in general. JAZZA:  Yeah, yeah, yeah. The umbrella. ROWAN:  And I think that it's very, it's very gay to just decide that the entire ensemble is going to be homos, big fan of that. I can recommend it to to anyone. JAZZA:  Also just to saying, you know what, I'm going to go on holiday and become a novelist. ROWAN:  I'm just going to go away and just write a novel.  JAZZA:  Yeah.  ROWAN:  To be clear, I didn't write the novel. I just decided what the plot was going to be. And I feel like me putting five fictional little queers into the world is pretty gay. How about you, Jazza? JAZZA:  Um, so I've had a pretty gay month to be honest. Until yesterday, it was going to be going to see Haim which just has really strong kind of like queer energy as like a fan base in general, you know what I mean. I wouldn't say it with our friend Dodi who has a huge overlap of her fans who also like I'm what a bloody surprise. So that was pretty high up there. But then yesterday, I managed to book my monkeypox vaccine. ROWAN:  That, I was gonna say that if you had that will be the gayest thing, awesome for you. JAZZA:  It is so hard to get a bloody monkeypox vaccine at the moment, especially in London, where we've got a bit of a where most of the cases are in the UK. To be clear, I'm not having the monkeypox vaccine because this is a gay disease, but because that's where it has spread most in the population. And I'd quite like me and the people I love to be safe. ROWAN:  Essentially, being public health conscious, the gayest thing that Jazza has done this month. JAZZA:  100%. ROWAN:  Amazing. [theme] JAZZA:  Hello, friends. Pray, allow us to briefly recap how it goes down here on the Queer Movie Podcast. First, we will give you some analysis of the key differences between the way novel and the Hollywood blockbuster and then some other stuff around debates of around representation in literature and film, which I'm sure will be fine. ROWAN:  Bit of a wider context of the film as we like to do when we begin after that, as always, we'll be splitting the film into three acts. Take a shot the new drinking game when you hear party in its aftermath, the name of at least one act, and every film that we seem to watch.  JAZZA:  We will crowbar it in somehow.  ROWAN:  We always do. JAZZA:  Yeah.  ROWAN:  And finally ending as always with our very special gay ratings. JAZZA:  We will be spoiling all of this movie, I will be honest, Rowan probably doesn't think that you should bother. But I did cry several times the first time I saw this movie and several times on rewatching the movie earlier today. So I would recommend watching it if only to keep your tear ducts active. ROWAN:  So without further ado, let's publicly shame our potential boyfriend and outing himself on a Ferris wheel and review Love Simon.  [theme] ROWAN:  Okay, so let's start by talking a little bit about the difference between the novel, the book that this film was based on, and the film itself. So I actually read the book before I saw the movie and I liked the book, I really, really did. It's published by Penguin in the UK, who's the company I used to work for. So it was kind of like a big thing, a big book that everyone read, everyone's very excited about, even before the movie came out was very, very well received. And I really, really liked it. And then have just slightly subtly hinted so far in the podcast wasn't that big a fan of this movie? And I think the key reason is these differences between the book and the movie, the some of the changes that they made, I wasn't too keen on this and very, you know, irrelevant changes like the title and like- JAZZA:  The number of sisters that Simon has.  ROWAN:  Yeah, the number of sisters Simon has, like all of that kind of stuff. But for me, the big stuff that is different is things like Leah's crush, for example, in the book, she has a crush on Nick, whereas in the movie, they change it so that she actually has this crush on Simon and is actually been in love with Simon this whole time. JAZZA:  Leah having a crush on one of their mutual friends rather than on Simon. ROWAN:  Exactly. JAZZA:  Yeah.  ROWAN:  And then the way that like, Simon's coming out happens, and the movie really emphasized how his friends just decided to hate him for that and for his being blackmailed. And the ultimate one which you know, the fairest the Ferris wheel. JAZZA:  The fucking Ferris wheel.  ROWAN:  Where essentially in the book, Simon does not tie together, him and Blue, finding out who each other are getting to know each other potentially wanting to date in real life. He doesn't tie it in with like an ultimatum for Blue to come out very publicly, while people watch on to find out who he is like, everything like putting that kind of pressure on him, which is essentially the big finale of Love Simon, which we will talk more about when we get to it because I think it's very tied to a lot of classic romance movie tropes and teen movie tropes, which work for heterosexual characters for various reasons, but which get a bit sticky when we are putting them into a movie, which is not just about queer teens, but explicitly a homophobic environment that they've they've kind of set up within this world. So there are there are like a bunch of smaller differences. But for me, the big differences is the ending and the way that these two things kind of play out in the movie as well, for example, like Blue basically tells Simon like I don't want anything to do with you don't email me anymore. Whereas in the book, it's like a classic bit of miscommunication where Blue did want Simon to message him and actually gave him his phone number, but Simon doesn't find it until later and thinks that Blue doesn't want anything to do with him. So it's kind of like a some differences that I think were changed for the worse within the movie. I would be remiss, however, if I let I just wanted to get that context out there first, but I want to just circle back really quickly to something that Jazza said. JAZZA:  Oh, no.  ROWAN:  Well, Jazza was like, "Oh, I did cry the first time I saw this movie." I was with Jazza the first time he saw this movie, we saw it at the BFI, right? JAZZA:  Yeah.  ROWAN:  We were in the big NFT the big- JAZZA:  MFT  ROWAN:  MFT. It's the name of the screen. JAZZA:  Okay, that's unfortunate.  ROWAN:  The film bitch. Yeah, didn't you reboot to NFT1 to see the screen. But Jazza was crying so hard. Cheering specifically the scene where Simon comes out to his mum. Those who have seen the movie will know after that scene, there's some light hearted scenes, there's the things picked back up like it moves on. That's not the end of the movie. And Jazza was crying so hard and could not stop crying to the point where he had to take his jacket that he had taken off because it was too hot in the summer and hide his head under it because he was so loud. No one could hear what was going on in this movie because Jazza was still crying. And I felt like the most heartless bitch in the world sitting sitting beside you and like sort of like imaginary- JAZZA:  There, there. ROWAN:  There, there, Jazza, my friend as you were probably having a crisis in the seat beside me in the cinema. It was amazing. Don't let don't let Jazza for you and he does a really casual like, you know, I cried a few times had a little cry today about it. JAZZA:  I know, I know. I had a breakdown. Yeah.  ROWAN:  It was it was week. It was a whole week.  JAZZA:  Yeah, pulled out like my, my, my heart and soul. The same thing happened rewatching it so this is now what we're watching for the this podcast is the third time that I've watched it. And I had the same reaction to the same scene. It's like not quite as dramatic.  ROWAN:  So predictable.  JAZZA:  Yeah. And I think that is going to affect the way that I talk about this movie because I have a bit more of a retrospective. We will we'll see as we come into talking about the plot more in-depth. But for me, we joked about this being the first ever gay movie. And I'm like, go and look at our back catalog of episodes. There were several other queer movies about teens with quick protagonists and with queer actors in it, and queer filmmakers making them that came far before 2018 When this movie actually came out. But this was the first time I saw something that really resonated with me, and how old I was like in my late 20s, at the time, and that was such a kind of like that, that does make it a really, really important movie for me, albeit one with many criticisms and I'm not least that fucking Ferris wheel. ROWAN:  So another bit of context we wanted to talk about before we dive into like, going through the exact plot of the movie is something Jazza you've been looking into, which is the controversy, the conversation, the invasiveness, I don't know what to call it around the sexuality of the author of the novel, right? JAZZA:  Yeah. So Rebecca Albertalli is the writer of not only Love Simon, but also what she refers to as the Simon-verse ROWAN:  The Simon, also, I love what you've called Rebecca Albertalli. When her I'm pretty sure, she just goes by Becky Albertalli. But it makes it sound like like, Okay- JAZZA:  I've never met her, I feel like I have to use her full name. ROWAN:  We don't be you don't want to, I don't want to presume I can use her nickname, which is- JAZZA:  No, I would never.  ROWAN:  -know the name Rowan, that's too presumptuous. JAZZA:  I'll just call her Albertalli. Like I'm referencing her in a in an academic article. So it has written a number of novels for YA novels with queer protagonists, queer themes, but was perceived by many people for a long time to be cis het, cisgender heterosexual, because she is in a heterosexual marriage and had never really spoken explicitly about her sexuality, and had actually kind of like whenever people heard invasively asked her about her, like, why is why is this het woman writing about like a gay boy, like in Simon vs. the Homo Sapiens Agenda, this kind of like coincided with a movement called Own Voices in from what I can, Rowan, you may understand more context about this, because you were in this world when this was happening. But it was a term coined, by a YA author named Cohen Davis, which was a way of kind of categorizing online stories that were told by the people who were from the communities and the identities that were portrayed in the literature that they were creating, which sounds like a great idea, right? The problem is, this then ended up gatekeeping happened and gatekeeping of queerness, not only by the companies who were then going around trying to tick the box of something that would fit under an own voices title, but also by people online, who then would go around questioning whether or not people had the right to be able to talk about particular communities based on their backgrounds. This got so heated, that my close friend, Rebecca Albertalli, ended up posting a quite a really moving very emotional, medium post coming out as bi and made it very, very clear. Like I'll quote her for a sec, let me be perfectly clear, this is not how I wanted to come out. This does not feel good or empowering, or even particularly safe. Honestly, I'm doing this because I've been scrutinized, sub-tweeted, mocked or lectured and invalidated just about every single day for years, and I'm exhausted. And obviously, this is a terrible experience for her to have had to have gotten through. But I think this started in like the YA space. But I think and I, I'll be honest, I don't know where I stand on kind of like all of this stuff yet. Maybe it's nuanced. ROWAN:  What? Nuanced, Jazza? Surely not on, on this internet. JAZZA:  But some of this stuff really reminds me of the recent of some of the recent things that have happened around the cast of Heartstopper, who are a very young cast. I'm thinking specifically of Kit Connor, who in an interview, was like quite bullish about not defining his sexuality, and how there was so much speculation online about his sexuality and the way that the rest of the cast defined themselves and kind of like this commercialization of static identity that you end up seeing in commercial spaces, because it allows you and I think some of this is it allows you to tag something as something and therefore profit from it, especially in certain spaces that are seen as more like socially liberal, like, for example, like why no foods that are perhaps more socially liberal than other parts of the media? Perhaps? Definitely more? ROWAN:  Yeah, I think that there was definitely a so own voices. I think, as with any things started with the best of intentions. JAZZA:  Yeah.  ROWAN:  And its intended usage.  JAZZA:  It sounds like on its surface, a really good idea.  ROWAN:  The issue was, it was not meant to be a if you don't fit into Own Voices, you shouldn't be writing. It was more for the fact that there had been like a spate of novels about like black protagonists, written by white authors, and that the opportunities were not being given to black authors to tell their own stories. And so the idea was less like, hey, you can only write an own voices novel, which obviously, it gets very tricky, because it's like, well, if I want to write an ensemble, do they all have to be exactly the same as me? Or do I have to basically just populate a novel or a script, or a YA book or whatever it is with people who are like, cis white, heterosexual men, because I can kind of write them because they're the Everyman. And then I get to do my own voices on particular, like it just it falls apart very quickly when you actually think about it. But all of this kind of good intentions ended up with exactly what you said, people who took it to the extreme to mean like, hey, if you aren't own voices, why are you even talking about this? And I think there's definitely an argument to be said about the idea of like, you know, the LGB and T. And all the other letters experiences are not necessarily going to be the same. So the fact that Becky Albertalli is a bisexual woman doesn't necessarily make Love, Simon Own Voices, because it's about a gay boy.  JAZZA:  Yeah.  ROWAN:  But I think that the assumption that was made about her that was made very strongly by a lot of people. JAZZA:  And that was weaponized against her because-  ROWAN:  Exactly, yeah. JAZZA:  -then subsequently, the film. ROWAN:  Completely. And she wrote, Leah on the Offbeat is about Leah, who's in these books, who is bisexual. And so that very much was an Own Voices book. But it was not something that she was marketing in that way, it wasn't a thing that she had decided wanted to be part of it. And I definitely agree with the stuff around the actors in Heartstopper, I saw so many interviews, both in person and on the internet with, at the very least, interviewers, fishing for a coming out story by saying things like, okay, and exactly how did you resonate with that character? Like, what about their experiences spoke to things that you have gone through, and I was so uncomfortable, because this shouldn't be something that you're you're kind of pressuring anyone to do, but especially not these like actual children. JAZZA:  Especially not teenagers, yeah, literally. ROWAN:  These little babies. But yeah, so I think I think it's one of those things, it's really frustrating, because you want to find that balance between not having inauthentic representation, but also not narrowing down to that extreme. I think basically, what the focus should be, from my point of view at the moment, although obviously, you know, we'd love to hear other opinions. So do let us know, if you've got thoughts on this. I think it's a really interesting topic, I think the emphasis should be on if you are going to write a story that is diverse in whatever way that is, and that might be outside of your direct experiences. How do you get that right? What are the things that we should have in place within the writing culture within the industry that ensures that nothing has been published, which is going to be damaging towards the community, and whether that looks like sensitivity readers being paid properly, being respected properly, whether that is about encouraging collaborative writing projects, whether that is about like anything that might be useful, I think that that's what would be a more useful focus, rather than kind of narrowing it down so much necessarily. JAZZA:  When I was doing research for this, there was the an article and opinion piece on Quill and Quire who's an author, I think she was really good at articulating that this is essentially something like Own Voices was a really convenient way for a publisher to tick the box and say, we are doing the right thing by this. But actually, like you said, the way that you make sure that representation is good is by making sure that your authors put in the work. But there is nothing really, there's not like a binary way of being able to make sure that happens other than making sure that somebody does the work and that they are considered and that they aren't kind of like offensive in the portrayal of whatever community that they're representing, that they aren't necessarily from, and it makes it more difficult. But this stuff is difficult. And something like a convenient hashtag, albeit with I feel like when you read it on the surface, it makes total sense, right? But then how it's ended up manifesting and ended up closing doors to people who do end up actually being queer and clearly really hurting people like Albertalli, I think the commercialization of it there and the hashtagification of it online as well are really what caused the damage. Anyway, this movie is great, isn't it? Shall we? [theme] JAZZA:  So Love Simon we're splitting into three acts. The first act I have affectionately called, He does theater and drinks iced coffee. All the signs were there. ROWAN:  That makes sense. You know truly, how did no one see it before? JAZZA:  I know exactly. ROWAN:  I'm gonna call act one XOXO Gossip Girl. Just because we love we love we love letters, you know, love letters, diary entries, emails, the gays do love a little bit of a paper trail. I'm sure it will not come back to bite them.  JAZZA:  Sarah Jessica Parker did wonders for representation of overly bookish people writing too openly into their computers. And the queers love Sex and the City. Simon himself speaking over the top of the movie, what's that called? The voiceover starts with I'm just like you. And I want to make it very clear, Simon. No, you are not. Simon comes from like what looks like an upper middle class. Really lovely, welcoming, friendly family has really close friends and lovely people around him a system that he actually likes. ROWAN:  Can afford Starbucks every morning.  JAZZA:  Every morning, that is not an efficient use of your of your pocket change my dear children, also all the way through this movie, I just get real anxiety watching teenagers drive, I just don't think it should be allowed, actually, especially in the US where the driving age is younger, really. I find it very jarring. But we're introduced to Simon, his mother and father, his mother played by Jennifer Garner. But we are very quickly told that Simon has a secret. ROWAN:  A big old secret. JAZZA:  And that secret is he really likes the boots of the guy who's doing yard work opposite his house. ROWAN:  He just wants to get into fashion, dad. It's not. It's not my dream. It's your dream, dad, I want to go to fashion school. Also, he's a homosexual. That's all like that's like, oh, just that's gonna have a little bit to do with the plot. But obviously, you know, hasn't told anyone. JAZZA:  There are three main friends who were part of this movie, his friend, Nick, and Leah, who was spoken about earlier. And then the newcomer, the cool girl on the block, Abby, all of whom are like very close, they go to school together and all of that kind of stuff. This school they go to really needs to shut down a website that students have started curating. Which is basically a gossip website for the school where people can post anonymously remember posting anonymously on the internet,  ROWAN:  Very curious cat, very anonymous Tumblr, very how strange. Yeah, it's basically just like, who's in charge of the pastoral care hit, but I fit this is also I kind of feel like, there's the thing that happens in schools now where they're like, doesn't happen on our property. And I want to tell you, that's the internet that's in a different world. JAZZA:  Like really wish it were better than that. But it's clearly not. But yeah, the teachers are kind of like, the teachers are where all the comedy is, I feel. ROWAN:  And they got added. So they didn't kind of mention this before. But there was the main guide teacher in it. It's not part of the book. And they've kind of definitely messed around a bit with the added in the comedy for the teachers in the movie. JAZZA:  Yeah. And well, Miss Albright, who's the theater teacher is there. And I can't remember the name of the actor who plays the vice principal, but he's in like, Veep, and stuff like that. It's very funny. Usually, at one point, he stopped Simon and goes, you got to tell me what brand those sneakers are. And they have a massive tick on the side of them. It's clearly not Nike, like, for goodness sake, I don't know if that was the joke or not. But I was just like, come on granddads deal with it. ROWAN:  You're just you're trying to claw back your youth. [grandad exclamations] JAZZA:  These Nicknock knickknock, my knees. So on this on this website that is clearly very incredibly problematic at this school. A kid anonymously comes out as gay and says, I feel like I'm on a Ferris Wheel. I can't remember what the metaphor is. But it's like sometimes I'm up sometimes I'm down. Wow, you that some poetic devices right there. ROWAN:  But to be honest, very good teen representation because teenagers do that. That definitely seems that something a teenager would write which we love to see realistic teen dialogue, just like they're not protagonists in the John Green novel, I think is what I'm trying to say. JAZZA:  Sure. Sure. Sure. Sure. They don't have that inner dialogue. So the person who has come out on this website is called Blue.  ROWAN:  Not their real name. JAZZA:  Not their real name. Do you know why they're called Blue? ROWAN:  I'm sure you're about to tell me so, no, Jazza! Why are they called Blue? JAZZA:  I only figured this. So much for pretending to be interested. I only clocked it today when I was rewatching and it's by a throwaway joke that somebody says, and it's a racist joke where what do you call somebody who's black and Jewish blueish. And because Bram is a black Jewish guy, he's blue. ROWAN:  Wow, if only Simon had more- JAZZA:  Had put two and two together. ROWAN:  -paid more attention, put two and two together. JAZZA:  So Simon sees this post from Blue, decides to email the person because that's a normal thing to put your email address alongside an anonymous posting that you have, and calls himself Jacques and the two of them start. ROWAN: Can I just say? The fact that it's not even just Jack. Like it's Jacques. It's like a specifically written and pronounced the French way. JAZZA:  Jacques.  ROWAN:  Incredible. He'll never know. JAZZA:  Jacques, by the way, it's how you say Simon says so very smart. ROWAN:  That Simon. JAZZA:  Simon.  ROWAN:  I have a feeling that might have been the justification of the boycott, as you remember. But yeah, and so interestingly, that you said that so in the book, I seem to remember that instead of him having his email in the post, he does it anonymously. And then Simon messages and is like, hey, I really resonated with what you said. Here is an email you can email if you want to, and waits for Blue to reach out to him with like, this fake email that he set up. JAZZA:  So the to start creating and weaving intimate parasocial relationships with one another. And if I mean, this resonated hugely with my time on an anonymous messaging boards, where I'm like, I think I'm falling in love with these lines of text. At one point, Blue messages Simon and says, is it weird that I'm imagining kissing you? Yes.  ROWAN:  You don't know anything about like, this could be a massive catfish. What a wild ending that would have been to this movie very different tone. JAZZA:  I'd have kind of I just kind of loved it, it would have had a very different message. Yeah. But I would have appreciated the risk that would have been taken there. ROWAN:  Well, already there. To be honest, this is already a risk because they get discovered. JAZZA:  Yeah.  ROWAN:  By another student by their student, Martin. JAZZA:  Who is the worst he does magic. ROWAN:  Oh, god.  JAZZA:  Negatively. ROWAN:  Never, never trust anyone who does magic. That's my life motto.  JAZZA:  Sorry, Steven ROWAN:  As I always say, if there's if anyone's listened to this podcast before every episode, I always say, don't trust them. JAZZA:  Never trust a magician.  ROWAN:  They always cut it, but I do say it during the recording. So yeah, Martin is also very, very into Abby. JAZZA:  The newcomer, the new friend. ROWAN:  Yes, the new friend. And so we get to our inciting incident sort of end of Act One, oh, my goodness, the big reveal has happened. Simon's life will never be the same. Which is basically that Martin is like, hey, what if I just outed you? Wouldn't that be fun? And Simon's like, no. And Martin is like, well, in that case, maybe you could help me win the heart of Abby. And we can both benefit and so Simon, you know being blackmailed, and all kind of has to agree. Even as he's trying to figure out you know, who is Blue? What's going on with this guy actually, like maybe I want to know him in real life also, I'm getting blackmailed. It feels like there's a lot going on babe like pick a struggle. Let's just, one thing at a time you those are going to school you're trying to keep the grades up. Someone's look out for this boy, you know what I mean? He's going for a lot. JAZZA:  I still find it so bone chilling whenever I like watch this. Again, like Martin thinks that that's a good idea. And you kind of end up like later on in the movie when everything hits the fan. And Martin ended up apologizing to Simon and saying, I didn't realize that people still would still said homophobic stuff would still kind of like care about the fact that you are gay. Martin is clearly incredibly naive here, but still clearly does not understand the threat that he has made and the existential dread that is now hanging over Simon as a character. It's a pretty damn terrible if you're listening kids don't do that.  ROWAN:  Yeah, and the worst, the worst thing about it is, here's a gay brother, like, this is even more unhinged is like he does know. But I guess it's like, like, that's so interesting to me. And I feel like there's not a lot of time that's dwelled on it in the movie, the like, what the hell's going on with Martin where it's like, yeah, this is essentially just someone who is so oblivious to their own privilege into their own life that like even their like, their brother couldn't clearly be going through some stuff. And they're just like, so oblivious or they would blackmail someone about the secret that their brother had? Yeah, Martin. Zero out of 10 would not recommend it. JAZZA:  Yeah, absolutely wild, and also I don't like that he kind of get some redemption, the end of the movie-  ROWAN:  Yeah. Not a fan. JAZZA:  -as well. For the last ticket on the Ferris wheel. ROWAN:  Not a fan.  JAZZA:  Of fucking Ferris wheel.  ROWAN:  The Ferris wheel. I will say before we move on to Act Two, which I know you're dying to, because everyone has to take a shot when we say what the name is this also in the first act, we are also introduced to the fact that there is a gay character at this school.  JAZZA:  Oh, yes. ROWAN:  Ethan. And here is my-  JAZZA:  No, get on that soapbox. ROWAN:  Here is my, here is my like, other big fault with this movie. And it is that it never really make Simon accountable for all of this nonsense that happens around Ethan. So like he, Ethan gets like, relentlessly bullied. And so that is understandable that someone who is deeply in the closet like Simon would be quite scared of that. Like, maybe that's something that he's seen and he's scared of it happening to him. Like there's all of this stuff going on emotions going on. But he is like actively acting annoyed about Ethan acting like Ethan brings it on himself not doing anything to defend Ethan, like all of this kind of stuff. It goes beyond just ignoring it. And it goes into someone who's like actively complaining about this person living their life essentially. JAZZA:  Implicitly. Yeah.  ROWAN:  And there's also just some moments that happened where like, Simon has this whole dream sequence where he pretends that he's like, going, he's excited to go to college because he will be able to be himself there, he thinks. And it turns into like, a sort of fantasy dance number. And then he sort of like record, scratch his pauses and is like, I'm not that gay. And I'm like, we could read this with a generous reading and be like, okay, fine. And that's a joke. Haha. But I think the fact that his character like actively seems to be quite dismissive isn't even the word but sort of like unsupportive of someone like Ethan. He kind of really reads as the kind of guy who would be like, Isn't I'm not one of those gay people. JAZZA:  Yeah. 100%. So I see your problematic statement. I see it, I hear it. I appreciate it. ROWAN:  Thank you. But moving on. JAZZA:  But I think the homophobia is fine. But I was Simon, like, I wasn't always the fabulous queer nail-painted individual that you see sometimes doing drag individual that you see before you today. ROWAN:  I don't see. I would say I don't mind that being because I think it's very realistic and it's fine. JAZZA:  Yeah, yeah, yeah.  ROWAN:  She came when like, then we got through the entire rest of the movie, and it never got addressed. JAZZA:  I think it kind of does. I like the movie didn't decide that this was going to be the arc for Simon, I think it would have been an interesting arc for Simon to take. I think it tries to address that, when they're called in the principal's office.  ROWAN:  Yeah.  JAZZA:  And then they have that conversation amongst one another. And the other gay guy says, "You could have just told me" and then read him a little bit. And that is actually kind of like a really sweet moment. I think that's when it kind of tries to humanize. ROWAN:  And it just doesn't go far. Let's go on to Act Two.  ROWAN:  Because that comes later and we'll like we'll dig into that when we get to it. JAZZA:  Yeah. [theme] ROWAN:  If you're currently listening to this podcast and thinking, Wow, I love it. I've subscribed. I've downloaded some episodes, but at some point, I'm gonna binge all of these episodes. And I'll be wanting more. Is there a podcast, Rowan Jazza, that you can recommend that if we like your one we might enjoy as well? Well, of course there is we're here for you. We are part of the Multitude Collective, which is an incredible collective of podcasts that are about a bunch of different stuff, essentially just people who are massive fans and super nerds and really excited about particular topics, talking about them with humor with history. So the one that we wanted to recommend specifically to you today is Spirits. So this is a podcast, which is actually co-hosted by our amazing editor Julia, and it is the first podcast that I listened to from the Multitude Collective. It is all about folklore, mythology, the occult, through the lens of like queerness feminism. It's amazing. It is a perfect mix of like actual facts and stories in history as well as comedy a little bit of fun that so every week, the wonderful Julia, a big mythology buff and her childhood best friend Amanda get together to learn about a different story from mythology over drinks, you Spirits, you see, you see, you see what they did there? We love a good pun in the name of a podcast. So they talk about everything from like, pop culture mythology, you know, the origins of various pop culture franchises like Lord of the Rings, or Wonder Woman, as well as urban legends. I really enjoy their episodes where they take like listener urban legends, from their cultures, from their small towns, all of the weird stories and folklore that people had growing up, and they tell those stories. I love those episodes. They are so cool, sometimes very creepy, and they have nearly 300 episodes released over the last six years. So if you're looking for something to binge, it's the perfect one for you. So if you like hearing, you know creepy stories that will give you the shivers or like diving into an analysis of mental health within folklore then there's going to be something that you will want to listen to you within Spirits, so you can dive in at spiritspodcast.com, or by just searching Spirits wherever you download your podcasts. Also, just a hunch, if you're listening to this podcast, you're probably someone who spends quite a lot of time on the internet. And if you're someone who's currently listening to this podcast at like two times speed, right? If you're listening to it sped up, maybe you are also riddled with ADHD like myself. If you are, I also imagine, I'm just, you know, I'm linking to cycle here, across the radio waves, you have 1000 tabs open on your computer right now. And at least 100 on your phone. Every every time you have a new thought, you open a tab, you need to Google something, you need to research something you need to remember to do a task later. Wouldn't it be great? If you could keep doing that? You don't have to change for anyone, I would never make you change. But when you did open a new tab, you raise money for charity. It's it's I know, sounds wild. But it's true. We have an amazing sponsor this episode, we've had them sponsor the show for a while now, they're still incredible. It is Tab For a Cause. Essentially, it's a browser extension that lets you do exactly that you raise money for charity, while just going about your thing online because when you open the new tab, you see two things a beautiful photo and a very small ad. And part of that ad money goes towards a charity of your choice. It could quite literally not be simpler. So you can join Team Queer Movie by signing up at tabforacause.org/queermovie. [theme]  ROWAN:  Basically, yeah, he's getting blackmailed. And we get zip into Act Two, The Party and It's Aftermath for obvious reasons. JAZZA:  And of course, because this is an American show about a year at school, and so the party is obviously the Halloween Party. ROWAN:  Of course.  JAZZA:  Because every school has that. So one of the I mean, this is a spoiler full podcast, blue throws a Halloween Party. And Simon is starting to kind of like, oh my god, I kind of like you. I will say, all the way through this movie, Simon and Simon and Bram, Blue, have no chemistry- ROWAN:  Yeah.  JAZZA:  -whatsoever, which I'm really annoyed about because they're both objectively hot. Keiynan Lonsdale, I love a lot have followed their music career and everything I have much but it just doesn't, I didn't know that there's no there's really no chemistry there and I find that really kind of like lackluster it's quite annoying. ROWAN:  Casting directors. Here's an advice from us do a chemistry read between your leads. I will also point out that when the Halloween party that wasn't like the anonymous person Blue did. The person who turns out to be Bram did it and Simon wasn't like well this is easy Blue throwing a Halloween Party let's figure out whose house this is. But basically, Simon is trying to figure out who Blue is and Bram actually again in the novel he literally never suspects the person that actually is that is Blue. But in the movie he's like, yeah, maybe and then walks in on Bram making out with a girl and apparently is like, oh, that's not possible, bye and so that's like he's like oh, my big Blue's Clues notebook with my big oversized pencil. JAZZA:  Craft blues. ROWAN:  That sounds and oh, thank you. I'm glad you saw what I did there. JAZZA:  It's really great. It was at this point that it starts to get complicated with the friends. So Nick, who is in the core group of friends with Simon says that he has feelings for Abby, who is the new girl. ROWAN:  The one that Martin wants.  JAZZA:  The one that Martin who is blackmailing Simon, I'm already confused. Once Simon then tries to derail this potential relationship between Nick and Abby by saying, oh, no, Abby has a boyfriend in college. And so this is kind of like the start of Simon- ROWAN:  Meddling. JAZZA:  -manipulating. Yeah. ROWAN:  Yeah. JAZZA:  Meddling, manipulating his friends, in order for him to be outed to the rest of the school before he wants to. We then also hear Leah who takes him home after getting a little bit too inebriated. Don't drink underage kids, it's not a good idea. ROWAN:  Because you might confess your love to someone.  JAZZA:  And Leah does basically confess her love for Simon but Simon thinks that his she's confessing her love for Nick.  ROWAN:  Yeah, exactly. And so obviously Simon at that point is like, well, this is this is perfect, because all I need to do is get Leah or do you like Simon I just have to get Simon to spend some time with Leah and get he actually totally loves her wishful thinking, child. Because then Abby will be free to be obsessed with Martin, they'll be great. And so he orchestrates a very awkward like, wow, Abby and Martin. What if we all met up and, you know, practice lines for the musical? Which to be fair, I think if you're getting you're trying to get people together. That is a way that kind of preserves the autonomy, at least of the person involved to secretly being set up, because you also did have to run lines. He's like, Well, maybe if I just put them near each other they'll- JAZZA:  Yeah, it was really good. ROWAN:  We'll see what happens.  JAZZA:  I think, yeah, it's pretty good. We get introduced to this minor character that has like four lines, but Simon thinks that he may be Blue. This guy who works at the diner called Lyle, bless Lyle. I think that Simon and Lyle have way more chemistry than Simon and Bram, I'm just putting that out there. And then actually, that night Simon comes out to Abby, and this is my first cry of the movie. ROWAN:  Excellent. Tick number one first cry, put on the bingo card. JAZZA:  Really beautiful. We then have kind of like, general, high school nonsense. And there is of course, our high school football game. ROWAN:  In case you forgot. This is in America.  JAZZA:  This is in America. Sorry, an American football game, a gridiron football game. Simon crosses paths with Lyle, the guy who he saw at the Waffle House, and tries to kind of like figure out if he's Blue. But Lyle is also interested in Abby basically everybody is interested in Abby, nobody's interested in Simon.  ROWAN:  She's so mysterious. She's such a newcomer.  JAZZA:  Yeah. ROWAN:  Also, I love that Simon does, he's having these close shaves with these guys who potentially he would just he was just trying to figure out if he's going to be like, "Hi, I'm gay, are you Blue?" And they'd be like, "No, I love Abby." So I really enjoy that he's, he's thwarted at having to out himself for every turn by these people being obsessed with his friend instead. JAZZA:  I would really want to go around and just go like Blue? Let's see who turned around. ROWAN:  Just yell it. Just yell Blue.  JAZZA:  Blue!  ROWAN:  Blue? Hello, Blue? JAZZA:  Like I'm looking for a dog in the park. So at this game, Martin, who's the little shit who's blackmailing Simon ends up interrupting the national anthem, which I understand is a big deal in the United States. ROWAN:  He just hates America so much.  JAZZA:  Yeah, right? And publicly declares his feelings for Abby, saying will you go out with me and then releases for doves into the- I- ROWAN:  Actually- JAZZA:  No, I do, I do kind of love the scene for the level of cringe. ROWAN:  What a promposal, am I right, Americans? Geez. JAZZA:  Abby then deals with it like an absolute champ quietly walks down the stalls and goes up to him and goes, I don't think of you like that. I think of you as a, like, I think reacts really really, really well. Very maturely. But then Martin is obviously a little bit pissed off is pissed off that Simon hasn't made Abby fall in love with him. ROWAN:  I think- I think that like specifically so although okay, because that is true that Simon cannot make him do that. But also it was because Simon basically was like, go big or go home, you little bitch. Come on, Martin. Pull your dick out. Like let's go. Let's go. And so Martin's like, I will pull my dick out and leave for doves and then- JAZZA:  And then the doves flew away with his dick. ROWAN:  Simon's inability to have somehow predicted that Martin would go absolutely unhinged at the slightest provocation is clearly Simon's fault. This boy is a blackmailer, you know what I mean? JAZZA:  Then on Christmas Eve, which is extra douchey. Martin in his humiliation decides to post on that godforsaken website that really needs to be shut down. And outs Simon by sharing all of the screenshots of the conversations that he's had with Blue, and I cry again, ROWAN:  It's wild to me because that's like, as established we have Halloween and then we had the football game.  JAZZA:  Yeah.  ROWAN:  Which, I'm assuming the football game wasn't on Christmas Eve Eve. So this boy is like let it fester for a little bit before he's like he's not doing in the heat of the moment. Like he's given it a better thought but yeah, he basically in the book Martin posts, he doesn't post the screenshots he posts he does post outing Simon but he basically like writes his own thing about like who he wants. Oh, he specifically says that about how much time I want to give a Blue-job. Probably play on words but obviously it like- JAZZA:  Same level as your Blues Clues. ROWAN:  -connected to Blue in some way. So that Blue to understand that like Simon someone knows about him and Simon. But yeah, so basically we have I'm assuming you also came out in the next scene where Simon comes out to his parents very awkwardly on Christmas morning. JAZZA:  Yeah, over on Christmas morning, which I think is a great day to have your coming out anniversary. He also so his sister walks in because she's obviously on the school website as well. And tries to like bless her she's like 8 and tries to kind of like maybe not a like, "Well, I'm on-  ROWAN: on social media. That's the get her off there.  JAZZA:  100% She tries to kind of like console Simon. Simon does not deal with it very well. I cry again. This cry number two.  ROWAN:  Wow.  JAZZA:  And then he comes out to parents a little bit later on Christmas Day.  JAZZA AND ROWAN:  Cry number Three. Yeah. ROWAN:  Got it. tic tic tac  JAZZA:  Exactly. [theme] ROWAN:  And essentially, here we enter act number three, which I think we both agree is titled- JAZZA:  Simon is a terrible person.  ROWAN:  Yes. Although the first thing that happens in Act number, Act numero three-oh, is- JAZZA:  Painful. ROWAN:  -basically, Simon's friends confront him and immediately-  JAZZA:  Oh, he goes to pick, he doesn't talk to them all Christmas, and then goes to pick up, pick them up, as if normal. ROWAN:  Just like, hey, sorry, I didn't want to give you a lift to school. Let's go to [45:40]. And so basically, they confront him. Nick and Abby, at this point, have figured out that they are actually like each other, and a couple, and that Simon lied to Nick about Abby having a boyfriend, and was trying to set Nick up with Leah, which she was confused about. And so they've now kind of gotten together, but also realize that Simon had been lying to them and that he also hadn't messaged them after he had been traumatically outed. And then, like, the whole thing just starts to fall apart. But it also is really weird because it like, this whole scene is set up like, wow, Simon is a horrible person for being blackmailed. What a douchebag. JAZZA:  Yeah, not very good friends is kind of like, like myopic friends, like, obviously, they have a right to be pissed off. He has kind of like, manipulated them in a pretty douchey way. But there's a reason behind it. Like there should be empathy and understanding behind it and these friends in the movie don't seem to have that. ROWAN:  No, and they're very literally Nick's like, what does that have to do with us? When Simon's like, I was blackmailed. And he's like, "And? Why should I care, Simon? Give me one reason." And so this is also where Leah confesses that she's it was Simon that she was in love with the whole time because he's like, I don't know, I just thought like, if I got you to spend some time together, you like him. And I think you're great. So he should like you. And like, you know, he didn't do something the awful stuff that could have happened if this was a different kind of movie. If he was someone was being blackmailed into making you're making one of his friends like someone else. There was no, oh, we should just play a drinking game and get really drunk. Like, there's no like, oh, let's do Seven Minutes in Heaven with this person. Like there was nothing like that. It literally was like, Let's go on a three-way date to a waffle house and run lines. And so this whole, the bit of the storyline, essentially gets concluded with Simon having to apologize to his friends and his friends just not having to apologize to him, and being like, so I'm so sorry, guys, please forgive me. I really want to figure out who Blue is. So we can meet up at the school carnival, and I can out him and they're like, we forgive you, Simon because you were awful. So we'll help you with this plan, which seems like it has no flaws. JAZZA:  It's around this time, just before they end up going to the carnival. It's the first day back at school and a couple of students end up dressing up as Simon and Ethan. Although I will say the guy who dresses up as the other student who dresses up as Simon just wears a hoodie and you can't really tell. ROWAN:  That's a pretty good Simon cosplay to be honest. JAZZA:  Yeah, 100, my Halloween costume maybe. And they get shouted out by the theater teacher, which I really, really enjoy. And then we have that weird scene with Ethan and Simon outside the principal's office. Did you want to like add anything to what we were saying earlier? ROWAN:  It's frustrating because what Simon is apologizing for is not really what he should be apologizing for. So he says he kind of goes I'm sorry, it wasn't it wasn't as bad as this when it was just you who are out. And like, which is so out of touch. And like Ethan's just like, What are you talking about? You idiot. Like that's not it at all, which will he should be apologizing for is like all of the stuff that we said earlier about the ways in which he's projected his own discomfort and- JAZZA AND ROWAN:  Internalized homophobia ROWAN:  -to someone else like all of these kinds of things. And that to me would have made this a way more interesting movie, it would have been doing something more than we'd notice. And not more than but did something different, something a little bit more complex than the sort of coming out narratives that we'd seen before. And so that to me felt like a missed opportunity. JAZZA:  Well, Ethan is in, in this movie. And I think in the books, if I remember the book correctly, Ethan is just kind of like a bit of a doesn't have a huge amount of character development as a character. And so it would have been, it would have just been a different story- ROWAN:  Yeah.  JAZZA:  -if they had ended up doing that. I do think it would have been warranted. And I think it would have been a nice arc to see in a gay character, especially a gay teen character being written about in the mid 2010s. I think that that's where, I mean, I've not been to school for a while, but I think that's like that's where kind of like kids are more likely to be these days anyway, maybe that's why maybe I'm showing my biases here. But it felt like my experience in the early 2000s In the early and mid 2000s kind of like going through that like a lot of that resonated with me the way that I saw the people who were in my year and came out earlier were more effeminate I blamed and I took great pride in being- ROWAN:  Different. JAZZA:  -not that kind of gay. I was very much a pick-me girl.  ROWAN:  Held the tables of tabled.  JAZZA:  How the tables have tabled. There's also the the- ROWAN:  The mum scene.  JAZZA:  Yeah, where he comes out, I cry again. ROWAN:  Yeah, that was the scene that really got you the most last time, I'm pretty sure. JAZZA:  Oh, my god. Absolutely, absolutely destroyed me.  ROWAN:  But I think that is also kind of like the iconic scene everyone talks about that also wasn't in the book that was very, kind of completely fabricated for the, for the movie. And I think that it was like for me that scene was like, very specifically perfectly written as the like, and now we will do the coming out scene. JAZZA:  Here's the coming scene. ROWAN:  Here's the coming-out scene. And I do think that there is like, you know, I like to trash this movie. But I understand that there are people who obviously need to see that scene and found a lot of comfort in it and a lot of emotion and all that kind of stuff.  JAZZA:  Me.  ROWAN:  It's just very funny because his dad is like his mom is doing the classic like, incredible parent- JAZZA:  Yeah. ROWAN:  Putting her entire 13 going on 30 year into that performance. And then the dad's like, You're right son. JAZZA:  And dad starts crying. The dad starts crying and then says, I think we should sign up to Grindr together.  ROWAN:  Yeah. JAZZA:  Because I don't think you know what Grindr is. ROWAN:  I don't think that should work.  JAZZA:  Which was, I think is the best line in the whole film. ROWAN:  So supportive dad. Yeah, so we essentially, we have this big arc of like, okay, so I got outed, everything was shit. My friends don't want to hang out with me. I'm being publicly humiliated. My parents are weeping over me constantly. And then I'm like, Well, I guess how I should fix this is just apologizing to my friends for being blackmailed. JAZZA:  He apologizes to them. He writes on the website saying, yeah, I'm gay. It's correct. And- Simon in the movie then go on to say, hey, coming out is just like being scared if someone won't like you. And I'm like, I mean, and-  ROWAN:  That. JAZZA:  And some more. ROWAN:  That and some other stuff.  JAZZA:  And you know, like systemic repression over centuries? ROWAN:  No, no!  JAZZA:  Fear to your like physical and mental wellbeing? ROWAN:  That's a bit blackmail amongst friends.  JAZZA:  Yeah. it's a weird line. That it I feel like the movie tries to make this experience a universal one, something that everybody can connect with. And you can connect with somebody going through the trauma of coming out and the trauma of kind of like being closeted. But you don't need to do by saying- ROWAN:  You don't have to literally experience. JAZZA:  -the first line, the opening line of the movie. Where it says- JAZZA AND ROWAN:  I'm just like you. JAZZA:  Simon isn't just like you. Simon is a kid who has if you are cis-het person, you do not understand what that is like. And that I think is the that's the biggest problem I have with the movie plus the public outing plus the blackmail plus all of that kind of stuff ROWAN:  It's fine that when the tears happen, they just wipe away Jazza's brain cells that were working on critiquing the movie. He's like, oh, we've got washed away, all of a sudden, and he gets annoyed. He's like, oh, wait, they got washed away again. But yeah, essentially, what happens is what I said at the beginning, in terms of this Ferris wheel, Simon does this kind of like, weird ultimatum post thing where he's like, hey, if you actually like me and want to, like, you know, show yourself, you have your chance. It's in this very public place on this Ferris wheel where you'll have to sit beside me and you won't be able to escape for at least one rotation of this ride. And so, because he posted it publicly, just a massive crowd of teenagers arrived to be like, go Simon, ironically enough, he just keeps going around on this Ferris wheel who runs out of tickets and who should come and buy him one more ride? It's Martin. And for a minute, I'm sure a lot of us were like, oh, no, it's not Martin. Martin no. JAZZA:  He says it. He says it's me. And he was like, I'm sorry. This is just so terrible. And everybody in the crowd is saying, This is so awkward. This is the worst thing I've ever seen. Yeah.  ROWAN:  But then just before, it all goes to shit Simon's on his own again. JAZZA:  Before we bring in Bram, I think this is meant to be a redemption for Martin.  ROWAN:  Yeah.  JAZZA:  And I don't think that there should be any fucking redemption for that little shitbag. ROWAN:  What do you mean a $1 ticket as buys you redemption. JAZZA:  I like saying so. He is not like, Simon, the character actually said it really, really well in the movie where it's like, "You took away coming out for me, that should be something that I should be able to do." And what Martin did is pure evil and should know better, like we said, because he has a gay brother. I like I kind of hate that the movie tries to give him some kind of redemption, but he buys the ticket four dollars by the way, four dollars. ROWAN: He wanders off and is immediately hit by a roller coaster carriage [55:00] it's just we don't see it. It's a deleted scene. Don't worry about it. We've [55:04] JAZZA:  Killed off Bram. ROWAN:  We've killed of Bram and Simon at this point. So yeah, Bram basically reveals himself as Blue. And then apparently, like the kiss with the girl was a mistake. It was like, oh, you came at literally- ROWAN:  -at that wrong moment, like, oh, how, what a funny miscommunication. And then they ride the ferris wheel and they kiss and that the crowd of teenagers claps for them. And then basically, it's the classic epilogue thing like Simon's like, my life just is normal now, except I'm in a relationship with Bram. And we're all picking up our friends at school but my boyfriend's here, too. And then they probably go and get with Starbucks, again. The end. JAZZA:  Tell me about it.  ROWAN:  The end, in the book, there's no crowd, and there's no public ultimatum. So it's different. ROWAN:  It's very different.  JAZZA:  Just to clarify for everybody, we have a little bit of time to do it before we go into ratings and stuff. Are you aware of the cultural phenomenon that is Love, Victor? ROWAN:  So I am aware of Love, Victor, but I haven't watched it yet. Because I think basically, I wanted to do the thing where I wait until the show is finished to find out. Is this worth watching? Does it actually have an ending? Or was it just cancelled with a big cliffhanger? Is it the kind of show that people will say, watch season one, don't bother afterwards. It didn't go that well, because it seems like the kind of show where I need to figure out what's going on with it before I commit. JAZZA:  I can tell you now, because I spent all afternoon  ROWAN:  Oh my god did you cry? JAZZA:  Oh, no, not at all. Actually. ROWAN:  Oh, okay.  JAZZA:  I think it's basically set the year after with a new kid who comes to the same title.  ROWAN:  Is it Victor?  JAZZA:  He's called Victor, yeah. ROWAN:  Genius.  JAZZA:  And Victor is basically all through the first season doesn't do it in later seasons, but all for your first season is messaging Simon being like, oh, I heard this thing that you did. And actually at the beginning of the series, like is like, you had a perfect life and a perfect boyfriend a perfect everything. And I actually like it's actually not everybody has it that easy. And there's a load of intersectional representation happening there with class. Victor is from a Latino background. ROWAN:  Well, this was one of the big criticisms of the movie was not just that they that the movie got made, like, no, it wasn't that the movie got made. It wasn't the way it was marketed was kind of using the classic like, Oh, this is a story for everyone. It's the everyman coming out story. It's like the story we've all been waiting for. And it was just like whites, this very upper middle class, boy with supportive parents kind of like, ah, this is the coming out story. And so I think that I'm really I'd be so interested to hear where this came from, in terms of like how directly it was a response to the criticism that this movie had against it. JAZZA:  It feels like a direct response to that they do at the beginning of it, and then in later seasons, there's a queer Muslim character. There's a lot more bi and pan. ROWAN:  You have been busy Jazza John. JAZZA:  Yeah. I'll tell you what I did. I watched four episodes of the first series. Then I watched the clip that went viral where they fluff milk, they basically make pulling an espresso sexy which is naked. ROWAN:  Very baristas very gay profession clearly. JAZZA:  And then I fast forwarded to the first episode of the final season, which is a recap of the last two seasons. ROWAN:  Oh, very helpful, very helpful. JAZZA:  I was like, oh, thank God, I never I don't have to watch the rest of it. I think it's fine.  ROWAN:  Okay.  JAZZA:  I don't think it's great. But I really appreciate the changes that it made to be able to kind of like show some more representation and seem to do very well it wasn't just kind of like crowbarred in or something to do.  ROWAN:  Very quickly, there was a tiny bit of controversy with this because they originally were not going to allow love Victor to be on Disney+ when they were when Disney+ was only doing kid stuff there was like a whole thing about whether or not Love, Victor would be allowed to be in a Disney space that was like- JAZZA:  Oh, well, well it is porn.  ROWAN:  -for teenagers and for kids.  JAZZA:  Rowan, there's, there's- ROWAN:  Do they full-on- JAZZA:  Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, obviously, not. ROWAN:  So yeah, this is so that is absolutely fascinating. I wonder, I do wonder if layer on the offbeat is gonna get an adaptation or not. Because that specifically I guess was more focused around the identity that our good friend Rebecca Albertalli friend of the show, Rebecca had kind of her experiences as a bi woman although obviously just because you're a bi woman and you wrote a bi female character does not mean might have anything to do with your life or anything like that JAZZA:  I've not read it. It could be shit I'm sure it's great, but it could be shit.  ROWAN:  Could be terrible. What well, one of the real dangers with this as well as I think that because there isn't like a monolithic experience right of like being a bi woman there is there were like as many ways to be a bi woman as there are bi women. If you are doing a piece which has been labeled Own Voices, I think in some cases for all for some readers, there's almost like an extra pressure to like get it, right? JAZZA:  Right, yeah.  ROWAN:  It's almost like this promise that they want to be delivered on of like, oh, this is the authenticity I want. And oftentimes, there'll be people who want the authenticity that basically just means it reflects my life as a reader who has this identity, rather than the experiences of the author, who also has that identity, but might have different experiences, right? And I think that the only way I mean, let's say, once we'll say it again, the only way we can really like combat this is just more.  JAZZA:  Make more shit. ROWAN:  Just make more stuff. So you can have a bunch of by rep, and someone will, someone will be represented by some of it and not others and that's fine. JAZZA:  I think our conclusions on this brilliant, good job, let's go into our ratings. ROWAN:  Okay, let's do it. [theme] JAZZA:  We standardize the meetings that we have for each of the movies that we review by taking the six bars of the pride flag, red, orange, yellow, green, blue, and purple, and awarding each of those to the movie, the more they get, and what is represented by each of those bars is open to interpretation and what that means. But you know, what? Who cares? Rowan, how many bars and which ones are you going to give to Love Simon? Our rating system works, Damn it! ROWAN:  It's so standardized. I'm gonna give it 2, I guess. JAZZA:  That's more generous than I thought you were gonna. ROWAN:  You know? Well, the thing is, I was like, yeah, 2. And then I was like, oh, I can't let you, you know, I'm just gonna do one because I can only find one that I think fits and it's Spirit just because of-  JAZZA:  It tried? ROWAN:  Spirit being like the American high school thing where they will get spirited, I guess before the big game or something. JAZZA:  I have no idea what you're talking about. ROWAN:  Do you know that in America like spirit week high schools.  JAZZA:  No.  ROWAN:  I think actually was in the book. I don't think it was in the movie but yeah, it's like a thing where they just love their school so much or something. So that's what I'm going with it really get it tried. But I can't forgive it for its entire act three. JAZZA:  So you're giving it purple one bar purple, which is spirit. ROWAN:  How much are your tears worth, Jazza? JAZZA:  I'm giving it more than you.  ROWAN:  Surprise, surprise. Said no one. JAZZA:  I'm gonna give it Spirit too, not because of spirit week, but because it had- ROWAN:  The ghost of Martin after the game. He emerged from the tracks of that roller coaster. God, a horrible death for Martin can't believe. I mean, I understood what they cut it because it did make it an 18 rated film. JAZZA:  Just absolute bullshit being touted by Ellis I'm gonna give it Spirit. I'm going to give it Healing because it healed me you know? And then- ROWAN:  Not what they're calling it these days choking on your own sobs. JAZZA:  Yes, choking literally couldn't function as a human for a good 45 minutes of watching that movie the first time and I'm also going to give it Sunlight for finally providing the spotlight on gay representation in this being the first gay movie ever. I wanted to give it three and I stretch for the third. ROWAN:  know what no lies told today.  JAZZA:  So yellow. So that's the sunlight is yellow. So yellow, orange for healing. Purple for Spirit.  ROWAN:  Beautiful. JAZZA:  There you go. [theme] JAZZA:  Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed these episodes, we need your help to keep the podcast going. This podcast albeit fantastic, successful, beautiful, sexy, still loses money. So if you like what we are doing and are able to support us, please join our Patreon, literally so that we can keep the wheels on this thing. ROWAN:  Basically, so we don't have to lock Julia in a room and force her to edit for no money, which is not something any of us want. JAZZA:  Great. But anybody who joined before the end of August, we're providing individual movie recommendations. And also as a member of the Patreon you get access to our Queer Movie Club, where you have access to the Discord where there's like 400 really wonderful individuals there. We chat about movies, but also like TV series games, etc. And then we do a Queer Movie Watch Along once a month, where we all watch a movie together. We're watching Dear, Ex this week. ROWAN:  It was a close one. We weren't potentially watching Everything Everywhere All At Once. It was a close-out on the Discord very exciting that's literally happening right after we record this. JAZZA:  Yes.  ROWAN:  So yes, make sure if you enjoyed this to follow and subscribe to the podcast so you're notified of our next episode which they come out every two weeks. Always we're always churning out that good content that good gay content for you.  JAZZA:  Good gay con.  ROWAN:  Good gay content. JAZZA:  Thank you very much, my darlings.  ROWAN:  We'll see you next time. Bye!  JAZZA:  Bye! Toodaloo! [theme] ROWAN:  Thank you so much for listening. You can follow us on Twitter to keep up to date with everything podcast-related. JAZZA:  If you feel entertained, please do think about supporting us over on Patreon. Our patrons really do allow us to put in the hours of research and recording that goes into these episodes. So sincerely, thank you. One of our perks on Patreon is a Queer Movie Watch Along every last Saturday of the month exclusively for our patrons hosted on our Discord. Gay fun really is had by all so come join us. ROWAN:  The Queer Movie Podcast is edited by Julia Schifini. We're also part of Multitude Productions so make sure you check out all of that other awesome podcast full of both fun and frivolity.  JAZZA:  Make sure you follow and subscribe to this podcast so that you are primed for our next episode. Thank you very much, my darlings you will hear us very soon. Toodaloo!   Transcriptionist: Kahyehm